Thursday, June 14, 2007

How do you handle “militant” vegans and vegetarians?

Okay, this might seem an odd thing for a fellow vegan to say, but I don’t like it when other vegans/vegetarians think *everyone* should be vegan/vegetarian, or even worse, if they become confrontational to try to “persuade” others to adopt their point of view.

I realize this is a relatively small group of people, but I’ve seen it happen a few times and it usually makes me cringe in embarrassment. Unfortunately, every so often when I tell someone I’m a vegetarian (I usually don’t say “vegan” in general company just in passing anymore because too many people are unfamiliar with the term and at least once in the past have thought it means I’m part of a peculiar religious sect), they’re afraid I’m going to start to lecture them on the evils of meat eating right there on the spot.

That’s too bad, not just because I think it’s unfair to them, but because I think it makes it harder to connect and work together to make some positive changes happen that could help us both.

For instance, current commercial meat production practices are both inhumane and hard on the environment. Now, I don’t think meat production should or even can go away entirely. We depend on it too much; I might even say we need it for various reasons, as I’ve said before. It does need to change both because humane food production practices are both kinder to the animals in question *and* gentler to the environment, but just how will embarrassing someone over his porterhouse and baked potato persuade him of this fact?

The current system is entrenched and will need to change slowly over time, with education. And when we do make that shift, we also have to make sure that those who raise the animals for food are fairly compensated. Right now, the system is based on cheap volume-based mass production. To make that feasible and still marginally profitable, many resort to the inhumane but cost-effective methods that are currently in place. If vegans and vegetarians can take a stand and make it clear we have no intention of trying to “convert” those who aren’t, we’d be much more likely to have a meaningful conversation about these truly important changes with them.

37 comments:

  1. Why shouldn't everyone be vegan?

    I think there is just a sense of evil in the wording "everyone should be...", I mean who wants to promote conformity?

    The truth is that these "militant" vegans which I apparently am don't put it this way. The focus is not on everyone being a sort of way, but abolishing a cruel practice. Of course it is right to respect other's beliefs and opinions no doubt, but it is a different matter completely to accept their actions.

    I have close not-at-all vegan friends and family members and I treat them with respect, never criticizing their non-vegan diets. The reason why is that I abide by the philosophy of respecting all life. This includes humans. While I can accept that I may not be able to sway their opinion, I would not limit myself from serving as an example of good nature and working in the background on abolishing animal use.

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  2. Thanks, for your comments, Adam. I don’t think I’d call you a “militant” vegan if you treat your non-veggie friends’ choices with respect and peace. :-) This is exactly what I hope can happen everywhere, because you’re not going to induce a change in thinking for those who advocate only a meat-based diet as healthy with any kind of violence, even if it’s not “physical” violence, IMO. I do disagree, though, that everyone even *can* be vegan, so I’m careful not to push for that in my discussions with friends, only to try to get them to see that a reduction in meat consumption overall and a change in animal treatment for food production needs to happen.

    My reply to you detailing the reasons for this turned into a really long post that won’t even fit in “comments,” ;-), so I’ve just posted it in another article (follows immediately) that I’ve titled, “What if everyone can’t be vegan?” I really appreciate the discussion and this is exactly what I hoped would happen with this blog, so thanks! If we can get discussion flowing between all camps (meat-eaters and veggies alike), I think we can make some great strides in making some very needed changes in the meat production industry especially at first, then go from there. I realize this is just one tiny blog, but everything helps. :-)

    Best,
    Kim

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  3. I guess I am some what "militant" but the majority of my friends are meat eaters. But heres where the "malitant" factor comes in, if someone wants to call me stupid or thinks that veganism is ignorant, I will go vegan on their ass and dominate the argument. I was having a discussion with a christian who thought my beliefs were stupid and I countered everything, apparently I knew the bible even better than he did. The only people that are going to be lectured by me are the people that aggravate me. Want to take a use bite of flesh in front of my face and go mmm? Well then I'll tell you exactly what is so gross about it and probably make you wanna never eat meat again. I actually made one of my friends stop drinking milk for about a month because they pissed me off and I wanted revenge so I told him the truth about it.
    I think meat eaters are IGNORANT, not STUPID. The stupid ones are the ones that KNOW the truth, and arn't vegan. :)

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  4. I think if your friends call you stupid or ignorant for being vegan/vegetarian, that's one thing (although I still think you can choose gentle education over insults even if they choose not to avoid that tack). But then, of course, you can't turn around and do the same to them without hypocrisy, IMO. And if they're enjoying their food in front of you (whether meat or something else), what's wrong with "Mmm"? I assume you do the same when taking a bite of food you enjoy, so ...? No problem there, I think. JMO, of course.

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  5. I broke up with a woman over our eating habits. It wasn't the top reason, but our eating habits were a source of much of the discontent we both experienced. I slipped into some pretty militant talk and action during the decline.

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  6. That's too bad, but I think most of us have "sticking points" where we just can't compromise on certain values with "significant others." I hope you find (or have found) someone who's a better match.

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  7. If humans were being bred, tortured, killed and eaten, would you feel embarassed by others taking a confrontational attitude with those who ate human flesh?

    Would you think that not everyone could or should stop eating farmed humans?

    Is there something special about humans that cows, pigs, chickens don't have? Do they not feel stress and pain?

    Are they not sentient beings with central nervous systems that generate conscious thought by modeling their environment with feedback loops and sensory data?

    Speciesist.

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  8. There's something I find ... interesting here. If you're so passionate about your views, are clearly presenting what you know to be an inflammatory viewpoint bound to incite some people, and, IMO, doing so just *for* the sake of doing so as so clearly appears to be the case -- not to mention insulting me and those who share my viewpoint besides, why are you doing so as "Anonymous"?

    Do you not stand passionately enough for your viewpoints to NOT be a coward about them, too? Just curious. Because if you are the same person who has posted here as such before (or even if you're not), then you can most certainly come out of the shadows and do so as yourself.

    And as to your other point, no, I wouldn't support cannibalism. But I *do* support that we follow the food chain as our natural physiology dictates we must to be healthy. For some people, that means they must eat at least some meat, IMO, as I've explained in several other posts.

    A gazelle feels terror when it's being chased down by a lion, too, and no doubt it also feels pain during the etire process of being killed. That doesn't mean it's wrong that that happens. It's a fact of life; it's the way things are and must be. And while I think animals who are raised on "factory" farms in unduly cruel conditions suffer unnecessarily, there are ways we can raise these animals humanely so as to minimize suffering as much as possible.

    One more thing. Your post here absolutely and most excellently illustrates what I mean by "militant" veganism, and is exactly what I don't want to be.

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  9. My above comment has as much to do with veganism as prayer has to do with kneeling.

    Be honest with yourself.

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  10. >My above comment has as much to do with veganism as prayer has to do with kneeling.

    Meaning what? That it's useless drivel simply coming from a troll?

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  11. This crazy, wild-eyed witch is trolling all over the 'net with her companion nutcase Dave Warwak, promoting essentially a terroristic militant veganism that is quite disturbing: http://negotiationisover.blogspot.com/

    If you see them around, they're scary and are one millimeter away from condoning violence against the president. Creepy.

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  12. I really liked this article. I appreciate your point of view. Thank you.

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  13. round these parts, there's not much militant animal welfare type vegetarians... the ones who choose vegetarianism, it's usually for religious reasons (eg. Brahmin Hindu, or Buddhist monk) or for health (after giving birth, circumcision, or losing weight). "animal welfare" veganism won't fly here.

    on the other hand if you say you're vegetarian, people just nod and assume it's for your faith or health and not challenge it.

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  14. Flies are attracted to....

    a.) Honey

    b.) Vinegar

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  15. Exploiting animals is never right..humane or inhumane..it's like saying, "it's ok to have black slave as long as we treat them humanely."

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  16. Funny how folks who wish to be inflammatory are nonetheless also cowards and hide behind the label of "Anonymous." ;-) Anyway, "Anonymous," what you call exploitation is what others call survival.

    Slaves were humans exploited by other humans for their profit, no other reason but greed. To say that that is the same as humans' eating animal meat is ridiculous, and ignores a fundamental "food chain" reality. Are you going to say that the lion who kills the gazelle is "exploiting" that gazelle? Gimme a break. It's nature, and necessary. Lions aren't going to begin to dine on grass just because you have the ridiculous notion that they should.

    I'm assuming you're vegan (or even, vegetarian, perhaps "exploiting" animals for their milk and/or eggs?), in which case I'm going to take your view to your own extremes. So, if you're vegan, you must also then exploit plants for their food sources, too. Oh, my, what hypocrisy. How dare you not starve to death in defense of the innocent plants who must give their lives so that *you* may live. Horrors. Why are you eating them? Why not give up your life, cease to exist, so that you don't exploit, too?

    Because you can't, and you know it. Your self-righteous argument, and similar arguments, assume that everyone can be vegan because *you* deem it so. You are mighty arrogant to assume that, and you're wrong. Read others' comments on this blog, those folks who have a deep need for meat for whatever reason (including medical ones), and put yourself in their shoes for just a minute. It's enough to have to struggle with this quandary when you love animals and would do anything to be vegan -- except starve and ignore your own health. Kudos to those who stand up to these extremist views and take care of themselves anyway.

    Here's another point for you to ponder. I was completely vegan, happily and healthfully so, for more than 25 years. I hit mid-40s and suddenly had an occasional need for fish that I honored. It's my view that many vegans (even "militant" ones like you) will at some point have a change in their own physiologies (especially as they get older) whereby meat may become a necessity occasionally. If that should happen to you, I hope you look back at your smug and simplistic attitude, and are ashamed.

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  17. The real question is... why are you so afraid of taking an uncompromising position on what you supposedly believe in? If it is ethically wrong to take lives for the sake of "taste" and general vanity... as is the central tenent of veganism... then why shouldn't you stand firm with your belief and let everyone know it? Why is the so-called "militant vegan" a four letter word to you? Furthermore, why is "militant" a horrific insult? Nevermind that militance really does not lie in an attitude of no compromise and condemnation of an evil... militance truly lies in taking direct action against said evil. Targetting the corporations that promote the idea that living creatures are nothing more than commodities to be bought, sold and slaughtered for profit and pleasure. Be it liberating mink under cover of darkness, destroying slaughterhouses, interfering with whaling ships or whatever. THAT is militance, and the sad truth is that not enough vegans are involved in this. There are more non-VEGETARIANS involved in these sorts of direct actions than vegans.

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  18. >taking an uncompromising position on what you supposedly believe in?

    My uncompromising position, and what I believe in, is that people need to decide what's best for them, individually. That's not my place to tell them what they should be doing, and it's not yours, either. While I invite those who eat meat to consider vegetarianism as at least a part time pursuit (for their own health and that of the environment), I have never said and will never say that everyone can be entirely vegetarian. That has to be a personal choice based on need.

    >Why is the so-called "militant vegan" a four letter word to you? Furthermore, why is "militant" a horrific insult?

    If it's not a horrific insult to you as one of those militant vegans, great. But ask yourself this: Does it work? It may make you feel righteous and superior, but I very much doubt you do anything beyond make most people run from you in disgust. Again, if that's what you want, great. But count me out.

    I would rather educate and get people to consider change gradually and respectfully. That's what's really going to change the minds of die hard meat eaters.

    >THAT is militance, and the sad truth is that not enough vegans are involved in this.

    Take a look at the effects of that, though. These single acts of militancy may make you *think* you're doing something. You're not, though. There's no effect over the long term.

    Instead, education, REAL education, is what's going to make a difference. The modern slaughterhouse *can* go away. But meat never will as a food source. To take away that modern slaughterhouse and replace it with something much more humane is going to take so much more than "symbolic" acts that make people cast you as fools, who then pay no attention to you other than as objects of derision. You're shooting yourself in the foot. Worse, you give those of us who aren't militant a bad name, because we get identified with you.

    Think about this for a minute. The modern meat industry is based upon mass production; that mass production has ranchers and others who raise food animals operating at miniscule profit margins based upon volume, what they can produce for the least cost. These people have to pay their mortgages and feed their families. They don't care whether or not you're doing "symbolic" things like releasing minks. They care about being able to pay their bills.

    Change the laws so that those same people are rewarded for humane practices (which are better for the environment as well as the animals) instead of for being able to produce a ton of meat at the lowest price to consumers regardless of how it's done, THEN we'll see change. And THAT involves educating consumers, getting them to care about more than just the price tag, and getting them to see the dangers to themselves and the environment of mass production, with its antiobiotics and other unnatural practices. You start there, you get people to embrace part time vegetarianism as a practice, then to organics, and maybe the commercial meat industry will lose its cost effectiveness so that it has to change. But that's not militancy, which only shouts at people. Shouting makes you feel big and important, doesn't it? But it doesn't do much beyond that.

    It's effort and education that really invites change, and it's quiet, and respectful; not symbolic, not grandstanding and saying, "Look at me!" Just honest, quiet, respectful education.

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  19. Veganism is an issue that is right but has dirt covering it up to the sky. Its more than an uphill battle to win people over to veganism. I know because people close to me were veg when I wasn't and I didn't even consider what they were saying. Thankfully, I literally stumbled over information about the truth of what goes on and that made me choose a path, moral or immoral. After being vegan for a few years, I can see things more clearly and I know that without real honest campaigns that share good vegan foods and also don't shy away from the truth about what goes on, vegans will continue to be a very small part of the population. Its ironice and tragic because a vegan diet is so great, and so peaceful.

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  20. I respect everyone's opinion and would never say anything against someone who is vegetarian even though I do eat meat and eggs. I have a friend who just turned vegan and his militant attitude, like your friend anonymous above scares me. Why is it ok for me to be respectful of his views but he is not of mine. he says the EXACT same things as anonymous above. BTW he watched a 5 part video from Gary Yourofsky, a known eco terrorist who believes it is ok to bomb places, if that gives you a clue what we are dealing with. I feel he will now end the friendship because of my beliefs. I would never dream of telling an Atheist he is wrong even though I believe in God. I never judge another. I see that factory farms and some hatcheries are very cruel and I do my part by buying farm eggs, organic meats but its not good enough. He says I am supporting murdering animals. I feel like no matter what I say I cant win and feel the friend I had has been replaced by someone I do not even know. No its not that I refuse to see the light or that I refuse to see the truth, just my views and opinions. Wish there were more like you out there. I feel he has been brainwashed by a vegan friend activist. Saddens me. Not his turning to Vegan but the way he acts.

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  21. >I see that factory farms and some hatcheries are very cruel and I do my part by buying farm eggs, organic meats but its not good enough.

    IMO, Una, that is exactly what everyone who can't completely forego meat should be doing, so kudos to you.

    >He says I am supporting murdering animals.

    To militant vegans, this is the ultimate argument, but many of these people probably also "piously" (and very self-righteously) ignore their own health at their peril to "save" animals -- or maybe they're secretly indulging in meat occasionally because they just must have it; then, they transform that incredible hypocrisy to smug finger pointing at people who admit to and address this need, in order to asssuage what must be incredible feelings of guilt.

    I don't remember her name right now, but one former vegan who'd ruined her own health (by her own admission) and had been militantly vegan as well before she accepted that she did need some animal protein said that the process of going to semi-vegetarianism was a maturing, for her. Militant vegans see black vs. white, right vs. wrong, "us" vs. "them," and think that *only* their viewpoint is the "right" one. A maturing helps you see that things just aren't that simple, and that self-righteousness and finger pointing serve absolutely no purpose. Different people need different things, and yes, that may include animal protein for some.

    >I feel like no matter what I say I cant win

    You know what? You can't. These people are simply "right" and you're "wrong," and what they really want you to do is to give in to their viewpoints, blindly. Maybe at some point down the road that maniacal zeal will be replaced with some peaceful temperance, but maybe not. And if not, then you have to decide how you're going to handle that.

    >and feel the friend I had has been replaced by someone I do not even know.

    I know exactly what you're talking about. I had a formerly good friend suddenly convert to evangelical Christianity. More power to her if that's what she wanted to do, but it didn't stop there; now, I was going to hell in her eyes if I wasn't "saved," too, and that became her central focus. Ultimately, I ended the friendship, which was painful, but she really *had* become someone I no longer knew. It was really a death of sorts, and I went through a grief process whereby I mourned the "passing" of this friend as I once knew her.

    > Wish there were more like you out there.

    One of the reasons I started this blog was to attract just those people ("temperate" vegans and vegetarians), which is slowly happening, and also to give people who want to *try* veganism or vegetarianism as a part time pursuit a means to do so. With militants, they force the issue. It's all or nothing to them, and any reasonable person, IMO, is going to run in the other direction as fast as possible from that kind of mindset. There are truly peaceful vegans and vegetarians out there, though, lots of us, who recognize the need for differing diets *and* viewpoints. :-)

    >I feel he has been brainwashed by a vegan friend activist. Saddens me. Not his turning to Vegan but the way he acts.

    Yes, I know. It's too bad, but good for you that you've kept your footing even in the face of that, Una. Best of luck!

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  22. I can't understand people who claim to care about / respect animal rights, who at the same time say that we should all respect carnists choices to engage in and support animal exploitation.

    It's a lot like saying you support women's rights but respect some men's choice to rape women. Or perhaps you'd say you don't respect the choice, but you see it as their business, and you refuse to confront them about it or publicly criticize their actions in any way. Incomprehensible...

    This whole idea that to get people to think about the horrific evils of animal exploitation, we have to avoid actually bringing it up in any meaningful way, makes no sense. People will change when they care enough, that's the bottom line, and the only way to get them to care is to tell them and show them what's happening.

    If we're not passionate about it, people get a message alright: they get the message that nonhuman animals don't really matter all that much to us. I take their rights seriously, and so I face the risks of social ostracism, etc.: because I care about what happens to them more than I care about winning popularity contests. If it was you inside the cage, I think you'd want people like us fighting for you, rather than some "lazy" vegans.

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  23. >I can't understand people who claim to care about / respect animal rights, who at the same time say that we should all respect carnists choices

    Because those "carnists" may very well NEED meat. We can't know what everyone's physiology is. You're arrogant to assume you can tell everyone else how to live, and what's best for them, just because you've found this for yourself.

    Thing is, as your own physiology changes, you may one day need meat, too. (Mollie Katzen is one famous vegetarian who needed to re-introduce occasional meat into her diet as she got older.) Or, you may ignore that need and endanger your own health as you self-righteously continue to spout about "exploiting" animals. Your choice, certainly. But you can and will be ignored.

    Or, you can recognize that not everyone is the same as you and (gently) encourage those who CAN be vegetarian to explore the lifestyle.

    >People will change when they care enough

    And that comes with education, not self-righteous arrogance and an attempt to dominate or control. We can get even people who eat meat to recognize the impact of their choices, to choose vegetarianism when they can, and to eat meat as sparingly as possible when they can't - and to choose humane sources.

    >If it was you inside the cage,
    I think you'd want people like us fighting for you, rather than some "lazy" vegans.

    No, I wouldn't. You wouldn't be saving me. You may think you are, but all you're doing is blowing smoke, creating a stir -- and not much else. You are a caricature, an object of derision for those who raise those animals. They ignore you, brush you off, turn away in disgust -- and keep doing what they're doing. So go on. Keep doing what you're doing. You'll just turn people off so that there's even MORE of what you say you're trying to stop.

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  24. I made the choice to go ovo-vegetarian not because I am against killing animals, but for two reasons: because I am against factory farms and because I am against animals being killed and then wasted. I am afraid to tell anyone who is vegan this lest they think I am merely against killing animals, as I am not. I do not think it is wrong to kill animals for food, but I do think it is wrong to make their entire existence a living hell until the day they are killed, like on factory farms. I do believe it is wrong to kill an animal and not use every part of it, as that is just a disrespect to the animal that has died for us.

    But it's so rare to do that anymore, to truly use all of an animal, just as the Native Americans would use every part of the animal they killed, down to even the bones. My father told me that people used to hunt buffalo for their skins, leaving the carcasses uneaten to rot. To me, that is just awful, and such a disrespect towards the animal that has died for you.

    That is what I believe is wrong. To kill an animal to use it to survive, that is just and natural. But to make its life miserable until you kill it, or to make its death in vane, now that I think is wrong.

    And because I know I am too squeamish to cook all of meat, and because I know I would just throw out the fat, and because I am speaking out against these factory farms, I have given up meat. But to keep animal protein in my diet, I have been trying to find a local farm I can visit for eggs, a place I can see for myself and observe that the hens are treated kindly. Because I know when I get an egg I am able to use the whole egg without wasting any of it (I've even been looking into uses for eggshells!) I feel better about eating them than meat (but only if these hens are in humane environments, not those awful factory hatcheries!)

    I have friends who eat meat, and I totally respect them. We are omnivores and it is completely natural for us to eat meat. But so many of us truly try to detach ourselves from the process, to see meat as something that comes in a package, not something that died for us, and I think with that detachment, we lose the respect that that animal deserves. If anything, I would just like to see people going back to having a respect for what they eat and not being wasteful, and to being more conscientious and eating less meat overall so we can go back to more humane farming. These factory farms just have to go.

    I just don't think you can compare eating meat with raping a woman. We ARE omnivores and it IS natural for us to eat animals. It's not unhealthy. It doesn't necessarily have to be unhealthy to be a vegetarian, either. But I do truly disagree with those who say eating meat is unhealthy. For all the reasons above, I am hesitant to tell people I'm a vegetarian, lest I be called a hypocrite. :o

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  25. Thanks for your comments. I've thought often of Native Americans' respect for (and complete use of) the animals who sacrificed their lives for them, so your comments there certainly resonate, as does the rest of your post. Very well said. :-)

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  26. I know this post is a couple of years old but thanks for it. I've been a vegan or a vegetarian for most of 20 years, sometimes I switch back and forth because I did feel very tired at points in my life as a vegan. I've been very concerned and active about animal rights issue the whole time. Nothing is more annoying than someone who gets all up in your face saying that you're not 100% perfect vegan, you're part of the problem, raping and torturing, blah blah blah. I actually had to stop talking to a friend of mine for this very reason, she would NOT stop pushing her beliefs on other people. I've saved more animals over the course of my lifetime than most people but some just can't see it that way. They become like religious fundamentalists who just can't see the world is not black and white. If you want to be a vegan I think it's great but not everyone can or is willing to do it. Take it down a notch, people!

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  27. >sometimes I switch back and forth because I did feel very tired at points in my life as a vegan. I've been very concerned and active about animal rights issue the whole time. Nothing is more annoying than someone who gets all up in your face saying that you're not 100% perfect vegan, you're part of the problem, raping and torturing, blah blah blah.

    Agreed there, Susan, and thanks for posting.

    >They become like religious fundamentalists who just can't see the world is not black and white. [snip]

    >Take it down a notch, people!

    Ay-men to that! :-)

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  28. When I had the cash (I am a student) I made sure that as many of my animal products as possible came from organic, free run local places. My milk was local from a nice farm (And in glass bottles). My eggs were local and free range. I bought meat from a butcher who knew where his meat came from and did not source from factory farms and he used as much of the animal as he could. I'm a student again and I do feel a great deal of guilt not being able to support a more sustainable and kinder animal industry, but you can bet your ass that as soon as I am gainfully employed again I will be reverting back to my old habits.

    And it's not like I eat a lot of meat anyway. I am also one of those people who does need a little animal protein. Could I go vegetarian if I wanted to? Sure, if I could get over my hatred of soy. Vegan? No.

    I have every respect for vegans who respect the fact that I don't do as they do.

    And... I want to have my own bug-eating ducks and chickens so I can have my own kind eggs.

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  29. How I found your site:

    I googled "How to deal with militant veganism,". I have a friend who became vegan 3 weeks ago and is driving me insane. Everyday is another 25 stats and 25 pictures of abused animals on her FB wall, and pleas for everyone to forgo meat. I've had to block her on facebook, cause I sincerely can't deal with her zeal.
    I respect HER desire not to eat animal products, but her newfound evangelism is insane. My question is this: How do you tell a militant vegan that yes, you respect their opinions/lifestyles etc., but do not need it foisted upon you?

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  30. Well ... you've said she's newly vegan, Rexa, which means her evangelical zeal may calm down over time. Maybe not, though. Unfortunately, for militant vegans, you're supposed to agree with them, period. They don't listen to reason (and they make me cringe, too, because they're an embarrassment and because they're shutting down the lines of communication and change that *could* be open).

    You could try pointing out that 1) she's only making people turn away from her and not furthering her cause, and that 2) she's blowing a huge opportunity; she *could* be gently encouraging people to go vegan for a few meals a week (which everyone can do, even if they decide they must have some meat). That still saves many animals and may even win some complete converts to veganism.

    That said, she's militant because of her "all or nothing" approach, and such reasoning often doesn't work with these people. If it doesn't, don't be surprised; in that case, you've done very well to simply block her, IMO. Maybe that's all you can do. (And just know that most of us are gentle souls who care about people as much as we do animals and who realize that complete veganism may not be physiologically possible for everyone. Simply cutting down on consumption so that you eat meat as sparingly as possible and being mindful of where your food comes from so that you make careful choices is enough. :-) )

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  31. >I have every respect for vegans who respect the fact that I don't do as they do.

    And... I want to have my own bug-eating ducks and chickens so I can have my own kind eggs.

    **

    That sounds great, Amy. (Couldn't figure out the dang Blogger glitch that wouldn't let me post replies previously, hence the loooong delay in posting this.)

    **
    >Could I go vegetarian if I wanted to? Sure, if I could get over my hatred of soy.

    But ... if you eat meat sparingly, IMO, you're being much more environmentally responsible than if you force yourself to eat huge quantities of (heavily processed) soy fake "meats" and are never really satisfied. Food that's as natural and close to the source as possible (ie, minimal to no processing) is always better for the environment (and us) than the heavily processed stuff. So if you have to have a little real meat to feel your best, that's far preferable to gorging on "fake meat" soy, IMO.

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  32. Oh I sooo needed to find this site, thank you!!! Just getting over some bad militant relationships and I'm happy to find there are reasonable vegans out there. I don't think you are a lazy vegan, just a relaxed and open minded vegan. Thanks.

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  33. I'm a vegetarian but I stopped talking to other vegs because I don't want to be judged. "You really should give up eggs, there's all kinds of substitutes blah blah blah...". It's kinda tiresome. Sometimes I want to tell them that they should be focusing on people who eat a steak everyday rather than convincing someone who's already on board.

    All the preakiness really gets on your nerves to the point that you feel alienated. I wonder what percent of veg*ans are really not that interested in animal welfare at all, they just want the moral high ground.

    I sympathize with meat eaters and I don't try to recruit them, because... the science ain't perfect, and I could be wrong =)

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  34. I came across your site while scrolling for info to help me with my feelings r.e. someone I've known who's become, shall we say, vigilantly vegan.

    I understand she is quite sincere in her change in lifestyle, but the change just doesn't strike the same chords in me that it does for her. It's a lot like 'forced unpleasantness' to interact with her on the subject.

    Never mind me - just venting. I'll need to figure it out.

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  35. Wow. I may be in love with you, lazy vegan! I am not a vegan (lazy? Yes. Vegan? No.) I have many a vegan friend who shares your sentiment. They are truly awesome, as are you. As an omnivore, I respect ANYONE who disagrees with me (on this and other subjects) so long as they can express their beliefs and why they believe them in a calm, rational manner. And if they can look for a middle ground....well, that's just icing on the dairy-free cake!

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